Back

@dalias Hello, just wanting to chime in as "the friend who is involved".
From personal experience in the ladybird project, everyone there seems very accepting of anyone else there.
Most discussion in the Discord stays focused on Building a Browser.
Sensitive topics like politics, ideology and gender are against the rules.
From what I can tell this does a good job at focusing the discussion on building the browser and I like having a space where
(1/2)

@psychpsyo "Very accepting of anyone else there" is a HUGE FUCKING PROBLEM if that includes accepting of nazis.

Considering gender a "sensitive topic" that's "against the rules" is a HUGE FUCKING PROBLEM.

Utter clowncar project.

@dalias I disagree on both accords.
If Nazis have to leave their Nazi stuff at the door and be respectful and accepting, I do not see what good ostracizing them for unrelated-to-the-project views does.
It will not change their views, it will not limit how they can spread their views and, at worst, push them into echo chambers and further worsen their opinions on people.
(1/2)

@jwcph @dalias
Ok, I might be naive and misinformed on this, and I'll take a step back here to lay out some other opinions of mine that tie into this so this will be long, but, in my personal opinion:
I think hate against groups of people (racism, transphobia, etc.) tends to come from a lack of knowledge and understanding, a feeling of other-ness that leads to an us-vs-them mentality, and an environment that tolerates or encourages expression of that hate.
(1/10)

@jwcph @dalias
It gives people an easy punching bag to blame their problems on and, given the environment they're in, they get little to no reality checks, showing them that these groups are not a problem and are actually largely fine, normal people and their disdain or hate solidifies itself as a more central part of their world view.
(2/10)

@jwcph @dalias
If people are told that their world view is wrong and that they have to change by someone that they do not know, have no respect for, have no reason to believe, or even see as an enemy, they will dig their heels in further and start defending their side.
And defending yourself means not letting them win, so this person is now extra unlikely to change their hateful core beliefs.
(3/10)

@jwcph @dalias
If on top of all that we prevent these people from having normal and pleasant human experiences involving those that they despise, I think that they now have little to no chances to see personal growth on these fronts and to turn around to be more accepting.

I've seen takes from racists who only know like one black person themselves and say things along the lines of "Oh, well, he's not like the others".
(4/10)

@jwcph @dalias
That is not a great stance, but it is in direct conflict the opinion of "all black people are terrible", so I feel like this is a cognitive dissonance that, if done right and very carefully can be expanded into more introspection and some level of understanding.
Which I think would be a step in the right direction for a person like that.
(5/10)

@jwcph @dalias
And I think that if people put their differences, however severe, aside to cooperate with others and work towards a shared goal, they get to see them not as a member of some group or movement, but as another human being with shared interests, values, ideas and opinions who, even in their mind, gets some respect for the person they are and the things they added to the cause.
(6/10)

@jwcph @dalias
That is why I think that ostracizing people from having any positive interactions with the people they hate isn't great since it limits their view of those people to heated, ideological discussions, that, at least from what I see online, more often than not, seem to be in bad faith, or a shouting match of who can force their opinion onto the other person.
(7/10)

@jwcph @dalias
To me, these seem like they generally don't affect the status quo very much. They seem like a cheap way to get a win >against< another person, and further reinforce the belief that the other side consists of hateful and awful people who are beyond lost and cannot be reasoned with.
On both sides.
(8/10)

@jwcph @dalias
So this is why I think that it can be important to have spaces where people of any origin get to, or have to put their differences aside and see eye-to-eye.
I feel like there is not many of those, and not all spaces are suitable for this, but I think it can make a positive impact.

Despite all that, I think it is good for people to take a stand AGAINST Nazis, and against hate.
To do so at the ballot, to do so in public, and to do so in activism.
(9/10)

@jwcph @dalias
But also to allow others to better themselves and to have the experiences they might need to pull themselves out of awful circles and to be even remotely ready to hear anyone from the other side out.

I hope this summarizes my opinion well and I'd love to hear counter arguments.
(10/10)

@dalias @jwcph Where can I read what these experts have to say?
I want to learn.

Also sorry for pinging you on this, it was meant for JW above since they asked. (haven't used mastodon much before)

@psychpsyo sorry, are you really arguing on why you should or should not give them any space? Every time you treat them and their ideology like any other you're actually hepling them gain (1) more visibility and (2) in essence supporting them ("if he works with them thery cannot be that bad"). Nazis are not part-time fascists. @dalias @jwcph